Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

When we die, our bodies are left behind, correct?
That means that our senses are no longer the tools
we use for vision, awareness, and feeling. I'm not denying
the very existence of Hell, but I do question the concept of
it being some horrible, unforgiving physical place with
curses, unbreakable laws, and unthinkable apathy.
As we die, we are said to "go to the light." The only thing
we can concentrate on while dying is going to the light,
so how can we have a choice? It's the only thing we're even
aware of at the moment, as far as I've read. So someone say
something. How can macabre visions of being chained up in
a fiery well-like furnace, in an abyss of darkness, which can't
be, considering the glow from the aforementioned flames, being
raped or such by demons or having the flesh rend from your body
and instantly heal again... how can that be an accurate depiction
of what true Hell is? We say our days have been hell, but in reality,
it just didn't go our way. It was uncomfortable, miserable, unplanned,
and just not fair. Regardless of books you read, I believe God has
a different plan for those who defy his word and live for themselves.
I don't believe the creator of all has enough empathy nor apathy for
the concept of a live-action Hell. Dungeon of fiery, eternal despair
and torment. I don't believe the concept to be as solid as it sounds,
even if it's in another dimension or on the astral plane.

About that comment, "I don't believe the creator of all has enough empathy
nor apathy for the concept of a live-action Hell" was over the top. I meant
that He knows that Hell as we know it is NOT productive, and there is no
lesson to be learned from it. God is about judgment and redemption, I think,
not torment and sadism.

By the way, this face is the creepiest emoticon I've ever seen:

Last edited by Alexgrey 04-08-2009 at 10:47:56 AM

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Faith is an incredible thing, the purpose it can serve in your life, what it can drive you to accomplish, ....... (notice I said Faith - not religion) And having that faith as a personal decision/choice, in and of itself, is quite an example of free choice.

Although I am not a theological scholar, I do consider myself a Christian. And so, I do believe in a certain prescription for the faithful. That prescription is not subject to interpretation - no matter how badly people want to change it to make allowances for themselves. Whether I am a good Christian or not remains to be judged by the only One who can. I could digress into more detail, but in the end it all comes down to what you believe.

I have never subscribed to the fire and fury theory of my Baptist background. My own opinion is that much of the Bible is allegorical. I feel much of the Bible was written in a way to inform the way a parent might explain to a child so the child understands. (Imagine Einstein trying to explain the theory of relativity to a three-year old) ??

Hell, as I think it might be, would be different to everyone who must suffer there. A place, or state of mind, that is absent of the things we say we treasure - love and hope.

If you are a "believer" - resurrection is certain - where you wind up is the question.


Edit: 4/9 Just a note of clarificaton as I understand it - God is about judgment, Christ is about redemption. Faith is a personal thing so I do not discuss unless the subject is brought up "in front" of me. If you believe that Christ is God's son, and that He was essentially sacrificed as the greatest gift offered to you and you reject the gift....... ???
I do not dwell on the subject. I'm done.

Last edited by FoF 04-10-2009 at 12:27:03 PM

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

I think if you were a Hindu or Buddhist or simply non-religious this quandary wouldn't exist . Perhaps too much thought on an afterlife prevents clarity in the one being experienced...I really have no idea, but I feel that it is hell to ponder hell, or heaven.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

If you are interested, www.shipoffools.com offers a rather openminded platform for thse and other "intense" spiritual type questions.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Personally, i believe hell is separation from God...(read hope purpose, joy, meaning, etc) A permanent separation from him at our own volition with no opportunity for redemption.

Not much of a believer in the cartoony stuff.

Though some would say to believe in hell at all is cartoony.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Have you ever been in total darkness? So dark you can't see your hand in front of yourself. Now imagine the drama of eternity in this darkness. Does it exist? If I told you it does you could ask how so? If I told you it does not you could ask why not? Free will with you at the helm steering your life boat. Evolution that science teaches is that we began as pond scum hehehe no wonder today's kids have low self esteem and of course imaged creation. Where can this take you? Hehehe sometimes the wind up in hell thought crosses my mind when life is spinning me like somebody flushed the toilet.... wOOt!

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

"Pond scum"....(I wish people had a more dynamic approach as to how they perceived biology)...never gave me low self-esteem. In fact, it probably propelled me to learn more about the biotic wonders that are a part of this earth.
You know, instilling respect and all that great stuff the "good book" talks about?

The current state of evangelicalism is a reaction, along with the War on Crime era of the seventies, against the aftermath of the turbulent sixties. The crucible necessary for polarization, i.e. moral absolutes etc etc, was used in part with an efficient dispersion of information to gain control of elections....Gotta get those "hearts" to get the minds (stupid, apparently it isn't just about the economy).

Nothing more than a power play.

The current wave of evangelical christianity is quite modern in it's public image and interpretations.
And dying fast. It has to. What goes up must come down.

Going back, I would guess the doctrines of dogma would do well in destroying the innateness of individuality. Truth be told, I'd rather come from the depths of a pond than from inside a storybook.

Last edited by epiksonik 04-10-2009 at 12:04:28 AM

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

We are already living in hell, I can not imagine the creator allowing there to be any place worse than this.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

"Pond scum"....(I wish people had a more dynamic approach as to how they perceived biology)...never gave me low self-esteem. In fact, it probably propelled me to learn more about the biotic wonders that are a part of this earth.
You know, instilling respect and all that great stuff the "good book" talks about?

Epiksonik no offense meant and I commended you for sharing the thought that the life you see is meant to be but what I see is well beyond me. Biotic thought for the moment is color vision and to which can and can not see. You and the eagle both chosen to have this ability. So much more points to an influenced equation which to this day can't be explained with science. Freewill to say yay or nay. I do have my vice, and that is to love God with all my heart and you as I love God for you to see that I am a follower of Christ.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

To ccslim -

Somehow I just can't keep my mouth shut, but your term "influenced equation" reminds me of something Carl Sagan said when asked if he believed in God. (I am paraphrasing from memory) - without being specific, he responded with a smile:

To believe the universe unfolded without a plan would be the same as believing someone
dumped 80 million (?) single letters onto a surface and came up with Webster's Dictionary.

To epiksonic -

There is a difference between faith and religion. The misappropriation of one has always lain in the hearts of men, and always as a power struggle. It always will, in any and all religions. This fault does not define faith. Faith has never determined one's individuality. Those who would pervert religion for any gain count on the despair of many who are not quite strong enough in their faith to endure standing alone when the need arises.
And - by the way - I believe in an all powerful God, so I find that evolution and 1st Testament allegory are not irreconcilable. (I just made enemies). What a miracle to come as far as we have, from pond-scum.




Now - I'm done.

Re: Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Last edited by CadillaCricket 04-11-2009 at 09:10:43 AM

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

I know now to keep my big mouth shut when referring to
religious beliefs or "cartoon depictions." The whole thing
was supposed to be a little more basic than what it turned
out to be. I didn't want to start a riot, I just wanted some
opinions. I'm sorry if the question, or the opinions that spawned
offended, belittled, or undermined anyone or anything
they stand for. It's just a ludacris idea to me, "going to Hell."
Like, it's located somewhere in an alternate universe, with X,
Y, and Z coordinates. Star Trekkish to me. Or farScape. Bleh.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

In view of the fact that your question was more rhetorical than an attempt at an answer (as one believes it) I have withdrawn my posts. no harm no foul..

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

....and politics!

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Wow, did I say something wrong? A deleted post? A post of apology if anyone misunderstood the poetry that was the original post?

What's going on here? LOL

Look guys.. We are all adults here, we should all be able to talk and rap an rhyme about this.. Lemme address the OP a little better... (puts on his forum voice)

To my knowledge there is no such thing as a rhetorical post at the beginning of a thread. The original poster was looking for a conversation, one has to assume. But at the same time it was posted in sort of a poetic, prose form. It's hard to get all forumy and chop that up and address the individual questions and assumptions he poses.

All in all I say it was a good post, but it deserved a little more explanation, I would think.

Glad to be here reading and discussing it with you guys..

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

CadillaCricket you made a very valid point that this world has issues that need addressing. I did not intend to dis anything but the staunch stance of science in general. I myself am a big fan of what we have learned through science. For a sense of peace, Love with all your heart, for there can be no wrong whether the Love is towards the planet or to each other. This world needs Love's compassion, and we are the only animated objects capable to effect our surroundings. Eyes will see and ears will hear who is really whom!

Alexgrey no harm to question because there would never be an answer unless we did. If one was to try to force a belief to you then there is no Love for another involved. Keep a thought that Love is more powerful than hate and without light there is darkness.

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

This could be due to a lack of sufficient quantities of caffeine, so if I misundertood anything please accept my apology; I hope my deleting my posts was not misconstrued...it was merely my attempt at sensitivity towards AlexGrey's opinions and beliefs that caused me to pull my decidedly Christian point-of view posts...nothing more.
I hope CadillaCricket did not think I was "Taking my toys and running home"....when in fact I was trying to be more sensitive to another's views....which is why I ended my post with "No harm, no foul".....

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

what to believe,what do you believe,what do you want to believe?
according to the word of God even hell was cast into the lake of fire

I think if I believe in God and in His Word,I should believe in ALL his Word.
The only book of his word is the Bible and that I believe.
I dont believe any one knows who will wind up in hell,but i do believe there is one and even it has a final resting place in the lake of fire which according to the word of God ,is the second death,and it burns forever.
how can one wind up in hell?I dont know.But to escape hell,I believe is to believe on the one who created it.God and his son The Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe to escape hell is to be saved.also according to his word (God's word)
there is no other name under heaven where by we must be saved.(JESUS)


Just a thought of some post i read about evolution,
if evolving happens over a time span, things turn into other things and according to theories
have.Why is it not repeating itself. the time span has past. duh?

if leach turned into a bat whats in between and why arn't leaches still turning into bats

if a whale turned into a lion whats in between and why arn"t whales still turning into lions

if a monkey tuned into a person whats in between and why arn"t monkeys still turning into persons

and the beat goes on

Last edited by denraybou 04-18-2009 at 12:50:42 AM

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

I've missed death many times. I don't like organized religion. I have studied ancient depictions
I love life, even the hell of it. Actions make the world go round. If my soul remains conscious
when my bod is rot- cool. Be kind-become divine. It's right in front of you. No ticking clocks.See
need? Give it. Been hurt? Ya don't know if another's' been thrown against the wall,burnt,
raped-before they could even walk. I'm a NOW traveler. If there is..." It" knows, and I'll be fine. If " It " is not...I'll never know. Many truths, and I believe many ways. Hells a scare tactic-
but " It " might be real, so just in case, I'm gonna give love, even if in giving " It " someone
decides to give pain- no one can walk in shoes they've never worn. And around the corner- just plain selfish people. They don't give a shit. Just get what they can, and never
see anyone in front of them.



'

Re: Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sk

This could be due to a lack of sufficient quantities of caffeine, so if I misundertood anything please accept my apology; I hope my deleting my posts was not misconstrued...it was merely my attempt at sensitivity towards AlexGrey's opinions and beliefs that caused me to pull my decidedly Christian point-of view posts...nothing more.
I hope CadillaCricket did not think I was "Taking my toys and running home"....when in fact I was trying to be more sensitive to another's views....which is why I ended my post with "No harm, no foul".....

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

As an aside to the Original poster:

I know what you mean about the oddness of thinking that Hell is at x lattitude and longitude in the universe.. etc...

Have you ever seen the Movie "What Dreams May Come"? It's got Robin Williams in it?

That is my favorite depiction of heaven and hell, and if they do exist I imagine them being just like that...

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Thank you so much for the clarification CadillaCricket; Each to his own is something I believe, however if I think someone is asking me my opinion I will gladly share it with him...which is what I thought Alex was doing...again, no harm, no foul, and feel free to play with my toys...oh, and as an side, it's spelled Proselytizing....

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

Alex

Working from your own premise that began the thread: If something of you exists after life, in heaven or hell, where there is no death: meaning (a part of you is divine), Then the real illusion is here within this life and not there at all. This would suggest that your concept of spirit is something more than the physical body. It suggests that you have a consciousness in this reality that goes beyond this world into the other. So you would say where you place that consciousness here or there is relative to the reality of that spiritual experience either here or there. For you are in control of your own destiny here or there by your own questions. This is all within your beginning premise by what you suggest and purpose within the question itself. Maybe within your own question you gave yourself your own answer. That would be up to you to reconsider and rediscover by rereading what you wrote as statements rather than questions.

Of course the mystic saints say they went now for a visit with the divine and came back to the body, which would suggest that one could transcend the physical limitations of the body with their higher spiritual consciousness when in the state of prayer. I think this is what contemplation, meditation and prayer are all about regardless of what Religion one might belong to in this country; Especially in this country where we are granted freedom of Religion. Which is quite a blessing in itself. There are places in the world today where having such a thought as you posted could end your life. And historically the inquisition exterminate many for not believing as they did in their religious precepts; all this was done in the name of God. Even Gallileo spent the rest of his life imprisoned because he said the planets revolved around the sun. Big joke eh?

And in my own life time Jim Jones took a bunch of loving Christians off into the jungles of South America to poison them all in the name of God. And of course there is Mr. Hitler who exterminated a few million Jews and gypsies because he didn't like there spiritual and political beliefs. Then there's (Pol Pott)sp and the few million of the killing fields because of their political differences and education. I'd say be weary of other's selfish concerns more than what is hell. Because these things were real hellish if you ask me.

But as a poet you might be on the right track where it is the inclusive and not the exclusive that is celebrated in both life and death. Keep writing and have fun at it too. I think you're on the right track. Question it all and speak out about it as well.

a poet and artist friend
RH Peat

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

This is how I see it...if we are all God's children, let me ask all of you parents out there this question...could you punish your child by throwing them into a lake of fire, knowing they were going to be in excruciating pain, and subject them to unknown horrors such as flesh eating worms, not giving them anything to drink, for all eternity? I cannot foresee doing that to either one of my sons, or granddaughters, or nephews. As for the whole God/Jesus/Heaven/Hell/death debate, all I can say is this...the longer I live, and the more things I see in person and on TV, the injustices done to human beings, innocent human beings, the more I wonder...why doesn't God step in? For example...a small child is kidnapped, raped, and murdered. Where is God when that happens? If there is indeed such an all knowing, all mighty, all powerful, omnipotent God, then don't you think He could choose to save that child some how from the hands of the sick mind delivering the torture??? It's things like that that bug me. And what about all the accounts of ghosts? If we are destined for only one of two places when we die, then how do you explain ghost sightings??? Why didn't THEY go to either heaven or hell??? If anyone has any answers to these questions I would be eternally grateful, because at this point I'm convinced that when we die all we do is lay in the ground and rot. If my mom ever reads this she will probably freak and beat me with her Bible because I was raised in church, but like I said, I have just seen too much and been through too much. Or maybe I just think too much. Comments, anyone???

Re: Epiphany: How can one wind up in Hell?

To uspslady -

As simply as I can put my opinion - (If you believe)

A set of rules has been laid out to be followed , or not. We have free choice. Without that
one thing, free choice, we would be subjects of a dictatorial being. A "loving dictatorship" is an oxymoron.

Judgement, punishment, reward.....whatever you believe....comes after your choices. As far as the harmed innocent - God is waiting with open arms and a tear that will heal all injury.

And regarding most injustices in the world - how can God let it happen? I think the point is, how can we let it happen?