Re: A Contemplative Queston

As I see it it is the Christ, Son of the living God. Be known this is as I first see it unknowing the background of the poet. Tricky inside this lil diddy as you post.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

The promise reminded
I should believe, as
from the beginning, and
during the journey, till
I look back then surely pass
come unto the children, for
from the mouths of babes
comes the knowledge, the
father became the child
to show the way, only
two parts the trinity, for
the man is allowed
to hold the spirit
but one of the three
the natural piety.


Only my take on it, thanks for sharing that RH
made me remember some things ken

Re: A Contemplative Queston

For a secular view, the child matures and becomes the adult. The adult is the natural extension and progression of the child. As I see it, child and father are one in the same bound by common experience. Never lose the inner child.

Easy to see Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

is one mature when one can see the parent apparent in the self,
from observation within my brothers and i
they would be insulted if they were compared to their father, i differ, seeing the sides of myself that are similar to our father, to them any comparison applied is taboo, and will result in their " not speaking to the person so rash as to state such.
it is ironic that in their elective blindspot, where anything that resembles our father, their actions, reactions and behavior are cloned to an accurate match our father was a brilliant man, but not loved and not liked, being the youngest and learning to read as i turned the pages of books for him as he read to my older brothers, Kipling, the poems of robert service, tarzan, bomba the jungle boy, and the rubyaat of omar kayyam, i loved him for that, and still do, (even when ronald regan was awarding him a bronze plaque for matters dealing with the Beruit massacer, he said i"I don't know why they gave this to me, they dont like me.
two years after his death it hit me that he was in competation with everyone(including me,)
being the youngest kept me from a lot of the events that fostered my brothers hatred, I always told my father that I loved him, (not just because it bugged him, but i was sincere about it, where i can see my father in myself, and myself in my father and love both myself and my father, the difference is apparent to me I only compeat with myself.. not friends, family or anyone else i honor my father for the gifts he gave me without knowing he was teaching meif i get a glimps of him in myself i send him love, and hope he is in a place without fear, and the romantic that he was, and the poet who when he was 16 asked my grandmother how do you spell as with one s or two(when writing a poem for a girlfriend) I was his friend, and son though it wasnt in his way to have friends, if i couldnt see me in my father and my father in myself, there would be no value in either of us we differed on everything possible, but in edward fitzgeralds translations of Kayyaam, and Zivago, we were two brothers in awe, wonder and joy,reading timless poetry
... i see a rainbow, and smile..

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Could it be that considering his mother and father died when he was young that he had to become his own father? And perhaps, he was able to handle himself better when he was a child and then needed to remind himself of this as a man.

I also like the thought that it could mean the holy trinity.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

As incredibly visual and metaphorical as Wordsworth writes, my take is a bit more simplistic on your question -

We are all, now, (man) come from what has preceeded us in our lives.
(child that father's our future)

My interpretation is that what we are is based on what has been built on, which is/was less than than what we are now. Therefore it could be said the child keeps nurturing the adult we become. Sometimes, we lose sight of those younger experiences that helped to shape us.
Those moments when you waded into the ocean for the first time, sat in the front seat of a great roller-coaster, the kiss of your first love, the evening you sat and watched a beautiful sunset because it was too beautiful to look away.

I believe Wordsworth wanted us to live our lives with the same wonder we felt when experiencing those awe-filled moments that became a part our lives.

I hope I made sense (I know what I mean).

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Very good responses, I agree with them all. Don't ever let the child in you totally escape, be open to understand as a child even when you are grown. I can see why this has been remembered with awe and much contemplation all these years ... for now I feel it too. Thanks again for sharing this, I don't think the comments are over yet ... at least I hope not. ken

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Ok, my thought is
When something makes you happy
like the rainbow, and you feel that new/awe
You feel like a child, and with a thought/wisdom
that you have the power of creation/
to have kids so they can too give
the feeling of the awe the maginificent feeling
to someone.

I 'm a father so I have experienced that.

I hope this helps

john E

Re: A Contemplative Queston

OK RH...in a departure from all the other interpretations posted (all of which possess merit and insight)...my gut response to this stems from my own experience as a parent. We are only ourselves until our children our born. The experience of being a parent teaches most people more about themselves and the nature of existence and what is really important to pass on than any other event in an individual lifespan. As parents we are constantly challenged to self-evaluate and to be anything close to a good parent we must learn totally foreign concepts such as selflessness, self-discipline etc. In other words, when we become parents we must mature in order to be worthy of the trust inherent in the position. Thus...the child becomes the father.

In the context of the poem, who better to remind us of the awe and glory of creation than our children? They see everything through uncomplicated eyes and bring back to us that sense of wide-eyed innocence we ourselves experienced so long ago.

Also, by the placement in the poem (as the man is growing older) it could be taken to mean that as we age and become infirm our children become our caretakers...or "parent", protecting us from ourselves and providing for our physical and emotional needs.

These are just a few thoughts....but there's your female perspective. (although there are undoubtedly many women who would express alternative interpretation, as we women do not necessarily operate from a group-mind mentality....no Stepford wives here please!)

Thanks for inviting me to comment...I may not always be right, but I always, always have an opinion.

Elayne

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Well RH, I do think that this is a very interesting topic and I am very glad that you posted it...I can only guess what Wordsworth was trying to get at...I did, at first, think that it had a more religious meaning to it when I read the last line, "Bound each to each by natural piety". However, I noted that since he mentioned it was a "natural piety" that perhaps he was speaking of the loyalty that children always have to their parents...and perhaps he is trying to say that we could take a learn as much from children as they do from us. Specifically in the area of loyalty? It was just my take on it...

Re: A Contemplative Queston

'children are closer to god than can be taught...'

i wrote this line in a poem eight years ago when my son was born. I think we tend to get further from the pure state of our birth-self the older we get, and seek to return to that form. I also agree with FOF, that child preceeds man and thus is father of....

in mexican 'corridos' (traditional ballads of tragedy, most commonly gunfighter or smuggler stories told in song) the phrase "padre de" ("father of") implies superiority. i.e., father of all drug traffickers would suggest the protagonist is the best drug trafficker.

Perhaps, Wordsworth suggests child is better than man.


Piety

Pi"e*ty\, n. [F. pi['e]t['e]; cf. It. piet[`a]; both fr. L. pietas piety, fr. pius pious. See Pious, and cf. Pity.]

1. Veneration or reverence of the Supreme Being, and love of his character; loving obedience to the will of God, and earnest devotion to his service.

Piety is the only proper and adequate relief of decaying man. --Rambler.

2. Duty; dutifulness; filial reverence and devotion; affectionate reverence and service shown toward parents, relatives, benefactors, country, etc.

Conferred upon me for the piety Which to my country I was judged to have shown. --Milton.
-great question. Thank you for sharing.

Last edited by catarino 05-14-2009 at 07:26:04 PM

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Here is a montage of random thoughts related to this........

I first thought similar to Dancing bear, that the child is the father of the man like a seed is the father of the tree or a tadpole is the father of the frog. Line upon line, order upon order. All things follow a natural progression.
I thought to myself...Well, that is pretty simplistic, and considering the highly intelligent interpretations I read and so didn't leave a comment last time i read this.

So I read the poem again and thought some more...

Question...What is true manhood?
When does a man become a man?
Are some "men" non grown up children? or stunted children?
What is the true way a man should be?
Let's ask the women...lol!
Passages of all those books from the nineties come to mind
...bly and all the others.

When and how does a man tell himself he is grown?
Who passes that flag on to him?
Or does he just sieze it and run?

I don't really see the trinity in that poem, For me the quote that comes to mind is....
Matthew, Chapter 19, 014: But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

So how are children the Kingdom of heaven?
Why did Jesus' "men" want to forbid the children from seeing Jesus?
Why did he tell them to bugger off?
Why would anyone make up such a story, what would be the point?
What archetypal lesson would they want to display/teach?

stalwart faithfulness and trust, innocently appreciating the moment to roll in grass or play in a fountain, or wonder about their world, shapes of clouds, or marvel at a rainbow etc
humility to see the wonder in the world and to have an open mind and to believe,

Certainly, what happens as a child affects their adulthood. Can't count how many older adults I've talked to who still talk about childhood hurts, pains, losses, etc. To where they cannot let it go. Often the ones having children are children themselves. What do the children teach about being a man to their children?

How does a child become old? How does an old man die?
When does a man quit dreaming? or hoping? or sit in the backyard drowning his pain in a case of beer? When does he just give up and decide not to care anymore? Where is the childhood wonder? When did he quit being vulnerable? When did he quit smelling flowers?
When did he quit believing in something larger than himself?

These things that I have put away
lay deep inside my soul
I planned to hope my life away
but life has had her toll
and now i ponder on the past
and now i'm wondering
thinking mostly bitter thoughts
the offspring of my sin
so how will i assuage my heart
to who release my pain
I choose the oiler of the heart
so I can hope again

Matthew, Chapter 18, 004: Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Very Good Stuff,
I think we all have piled up on it.
But is it getting away from us, ??
They sand goes easy thru the hands, right????
But not if you get the sand wet,

Re: A Contemplative Queston

The child did not literally "beget" the father...maybe the child opened his father's eyes to the joy of simple things like a rainbow...there are all types of "births", not just childbirth. In a poem that line could mean any number of things. Perhaps the father saw things through the child's eyes and that literally opened up a whole new world for the father. Most people see a rainbow and think, oh, how pretty, that's nice, etc, etc. But to a child a rainbow is magical. They probably wonder if it's really made of Skittles or if there is really a pot of gold and dancing leprechauns at the end of it. They didn't have Skittles when I was a kid but I sure did used to wonder about the pot of gold and how one would go about getting to the end of the rainbow.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

I believe he is speaking of ( JESUS CHRIST) the whole Father,Son,and Holy Ghost
Son of Man scenario (???)

Re: A Contemplative Queston

I think it is his expression of his devotion to stay true to the innocent things he valued as a child and have kept his whole life.......I get that from the 2 lines above the one you quoted....thats just my .02 though.

The child heart in all of us.

Re: A Contemplative Queston

Hi Rh,
I thought better to think before i read others. Well i think " Child is father of man" may mean that every child one day grows up to be a father figure -- may be to anyone. A child now, is bound to grow up and as every new generation is advanced so the future grown up child will know more. Also as he grows young, his father grows old so he (the father) is to be cared like a child.

Sometimes even kids teach us lessons of life--thus they become a father like even as kids.

my mind said this if i think more then will surely put it here.
Thanks for this.
Regards

Prritiy