Pardon me for sounding pretentious

As poets, we all feel we have something to say. And it is all well and good when we say that we write for ourselves. We do. Poems, free verse, prose, stream of consciousness, I believe, are our attempts to connect and be understood within ourselves. To find a clarity and resolution of things that tug at us from within. And it becomes very gratifying when we make a connection with someone who reads our work and says - yeah, I feel just like that.

I ran upon this site from a random email. Checked it out and signed on. Why, because I do love the written word. I feel, like everyone else, that I have something to say. But when we decide to post - compete - publish in any form, we are obligated to the written word to present it to the best of our abilities.

I posted, under Casual Conversation - don't mean to be mean - some information that (if it pertains to you) could be helpful. As I said in that post, I am NOT perfect. But if we do not make the effort to try and become better writers, acquire those basic skills that help us in our quest to communicate with poetry, then we are destined to write only for ourselves. If this is the case, if this is what you are happy with- do not compete.

I have read so much about not leaving comments after rating a poem. I am amazed at how many people get upset because their ratings change from day to day. If you are happy with your work - who cares if it's a 10 or a 2. I have given up on rating poems because I would rather spend the little time I have reading them. But -

If you do care, then care enough to rate honestly the finished creation presented. If you want to be a better writer, someone gave you a 4 or 5 or 2 even, for a reason. Adding to the advice I offered in the other post - please......

i before e except after c (there are very few exceptions to this rule)
there, is a place - their, is a plural possesive
our, is a possesive - are , is a verb
Capitalization is for beginnings of sentences and proper nouns.
Punctuation can change one meaning to another or at least give the reader an opportunity to breathe. It should not be up to your reader to stop and figure out what you meant.
Spelling, spelling, spelling.....

I am a judge - I can't help but be anal retentive about the use of language and what it can do. And I post this only in an effort to try to help those who are serious about becoming better writers. I can not tell you how to be a better poet - your (not you're) heart will tell you that.

Take my advice or tell me to go to hell. (By the way, I proofread this post four - not for or fore - times before hitting submit and I probably left something unfixed).

Last edited by FoF 03-15-2009 at 08:11:54 PM

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

There does seem to be an abundance of poor spelling on this site; Sometimes to the point where I am struggling to get the meaning of the poetry....however, for the most part one can overlook these things and get the heart of the poem and enjoy its intent. Many of us who post here are not trying to build a career, but are using this site as an outlet for our emotions, and so these little errors are no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

It's not about being happy or not with your work: if someone rates me a 10, I want to know who it is and why, same for a 5 rating. It's not about the number, it's about knowing who has been reading you. After all, that's why we are here, to be read, and to know who is or is not enjoying our work and why. Feedback is fuel for growth!!

We are writers, write something in the comment box!!!

As for spelling and punctuation: by now you either have it or you do not.
If English is a second language then that's another matter.

Plagiarism is another issue that is a "serious matter", much more serious than bad spelling.
I sent a confirmed plagiarism complaint in three or four days ago
and still the poem is on this site.

Other issues are badmouthing another poet, half-naked, or naked bio pictures:
if people have a need to undress themselves then they should leave this site
and move to Flickr or Facebook, or some porn site. I love nudity, and,
this is not the place for it.

This is a site for literary art, lets stay within this parameter.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To dahlusion:

I agree with you 1000% And I am making a stronger effort to read a few less in order to have more time to comment. My statements were made only to try to help those that may want to take their writing to a more polished level. As I said, take the advice, or not. The road to hell...........I hope I have not discouraged anyone from writing. It is the last thing I would do.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

I hope people don't get upset when I let them know they have a typo. I would like to know. I have found that some of my poems on poetry.com have had spelling errors oops and prob got published that way.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

I applaud you for your voice. Many are probably here just for fun. But for those who are serious, to write, maybe even become immortal, it must be done, as closely to perfect as possible. I re-write and tweak, again and again, even if I don't submit. Is this a run-on sentence? For me, the comma can make or break a poet and his poetry.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

If I have a typo, a weird grammatical error (even though I tend throw grammer out the window when I do poetry), or whatever...PLEASE LET ME KNOW!

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

"...tend to throw grammAr out the window..."

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

I always feel as if people don't know how to relax, be patient, and look back on their work to weed out such errors. Many blaze through the days like comets not caring or realizing just how damaging their oversights are...

...this small grammar issue is a small example of the state of the world, and the people allegedly inhabiting it.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To epiksonik:

My parents always taught me - only by raising the bar ..........
You're right. All it takes is a little patience and a desire, not to be perfect (no one is), but just to do better than you did the last time. By the way, I have not had time to comment (so I have not rated anything yet) but I really like your work.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

This is why I am curious what makes good poetry. Poetry can be pure personal catharsis or an attempt to execute a true work of art like i hear FoF suggesting. Forms all vary. ee cummings wasn't too tight with punctuation....on purpose and with careful thought. Not because he didn't know about punctuation, but because he was making a point....(we tell ourselves.

In college, I turned in a poem by a published poet, a little known poem, calling it my own to see what criticism the professor would suggest. (I don't think she had published anything herself, but the poem was from a noted poet.) Anyhoo, she didn't recognize it and gave me a passing grade with a few encouraging comments.

Expectations have a lot to do with ratings of others.

I do like the comments others have posted. I appreciate their perspective and how the poem affected them. I do like to improve my ability to capture my concepts with words, so raising the bar can be helpful.

Realizing my own problem with sticky keyboard keys and lapses of attention, I checked this post twice. (Because perfection frightens me.)

thanks yall (

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To lightcourier and all:

Understand, foremost, perfection is unattainable - unless you are a Russian gymnast. And even then, when those 10.0s pop up too often - the bar gets raised. Do not be afraid of it, it is a worthy goal. One you should work toward but hope you never attain it because the only way from there is down.

It is unfortunate for poets that, in today's rush to get nowhere as fast as we can, the medium we write is largely ignored/dismissed. There are quite a few who have published work only for the fact they have created a persona/notoriety with name recognition that generates sales, whether they are "good" or not.

As far as being good or bad, again we are stuck with a value judgment that is purely subjective. Generally, we do not have the luxury for long term character development -
intriguing dialogue - and plot twists. But even with fiction writing, if it is not written well,
or if the writer interrupts the natural evolution of characters merely to enforce the writer's personal point of view - it will sound forced and fake and the reader will stop "listening".

In my opinion - all poetry is a journey from your heart to your head and back again. And on the way there is discovery and revelation. Good poetry will take an outsider on that same journey

Last edited by FoF 03-19-2009 at 11:40:50 AM

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

I agree with the person who started this thread. I check my work several times before posting it and still I find typos because like everyone else I am far from perfect. But we should all try to use good grammar and correct spelling. Microsoft word and programs like it all have spell check don't they? Also if you want to spell check on any given site you could try using Firefox, it checks everything you type while using it.
No. you're not pretentious, although I think you are a word nerd just like a lot of us are. I see no reason for you to be pardoned, just commended for your efforts. ~Sara

P.S. I found a typo on my post and fixed it! haha

Last edited by raggedypoet 04-02-2009 at 05:43:47 PM

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

You are not being pretentious. You are correct. Being a better writer demands that we have a grasp of the written language. If we don't, we owe it to ourselves to improve in that area. But I proof-read every day professionally and still miss some errors. Still, if you're going to mistake fore for four (haha), it best be in the interest of a play on words.

Peace.
JL

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

Ok...I've seriously had enough. I am tired of hearing about "Good" poetry, or "better" poetry. FoF, I appreciate your grammAr (for epik) because that is the expression of your voice. In the same token, I appreciate every single misspelling I've found on this site if it reflects the nature and voice of the individual writing the poem (I happen to be one of the worst. I can't seem to get rhythem, or rythem, or rhythm, or any of the other variations i've used, right). Can one use a period in a parenthesis that is part of a sentence? I don't know. And I don't care, because i'm going to say what I have to say, and write what I have to write in the only voice I've got. As is everyone who is free to express themselves. To take their poetry as a whole, really looking at everything it says about the person writing it, is to accept each nuance (mispelled because I don't know how to spell it right and don't feel like looking in a dictionary) as an integral part of what makes their voice unique. Let's not forget, this is an internet poetry site. Not a formal paper written in the lastest colegiate (no idea if it's right) formula. I've written many papers. I've written a Master's Thesis and conducted several formal, professional research papers. As a result, I'm well aquainted with the arduous (probably mispelled again) task of writing with professional grammAr (winks at epik).

As far as making sure words are spelled right when entering a formal competition. Sure, I'm up for that; however, if spelling and grammAr (wink) undermine the voice of a person, then I'm against it. I would rather read the mispellings, thereby getting to the source of a person's voice than reading their "pseudovoice" (wonders if that's even a word).

On the other hand, I may be extra sensitive regarding this topic because I've had my "voice" taken away for a very long time and vowed never to allow its absence again.

To end and to all the misspelars out their, keep righting you're voices in the only maner u no how. And to all of you who use correct grammar: Keep to your literary complexities of perfect diction and punctuation. I will enjoy both as long as it's truly you.

As for me: I may write in rhythem, but i sure can't spell the stinkin word .

Last edited by Jaddenblade 04-12-2009 at 11:43:21 PM

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

Jaddenblade......all I can say is word!!!!!! we park our cars in the same garage....... to look for words mispelled and let them bother you to this degree is not only a waste of time but must take all the fun out of reading poetry....JUST BE WHO YOU ARE AND LET EVERYONE ELSE BE WHO THEY ARE AND STOP TRYING TO JUDGE WHERE AND HOW AND WHY PEOPLE CHOSE THE ROAD THEY WALK UNTIL YOU BEEN THERE.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To Jaddenblade (and JadedJezzabel):

arduous and nuance - ok and it is rhythm
You said it. Poetry is all about nuance. When one word is used for another, it can change
an intended meaning. And it is not my job to discern what the poet means. I do not have to look for misspelled words, they usually jump off the page. And caring enough about communication does not alter anyone's voice. Everyone feels deeply, passionately, about what they write - communicating those feelings is great.

Under your definition, though, why have ratings at all? Why compete? Why try to publish? If everyone's work is a ten based on emotion and you are happy with what you write, why complain about ratings? What is the point of ratings at all?

If a person does not care about their work, I won't either. As I said in a previous post - you don't want me to read or rate your work, drop me a line. But let me ask you to consider this: That ability to communicate with others is a gift to others, as well as yourself. If you choose to place limitations on it, who is to blame when you can not get your point across.

My feelings have never been to chastise, or hurt anyone. The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone's voice. The only way to become a better writer is to try and do a better job of it each time you pick up a pen. And if becoming a better writer is not your cup of tea, that's fine too.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

FoF
As far as I know, you never have read my work. You've never left a comment. It is possible you have rated it. In the future, if you care to rate my work, please leave a comment. After all, who can become a better writer from a posted number? To get one's point across, one must communicate their point with words. It's words FoF that make clear points and help make better writers not numbers.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To FoF,

Spare me the simplicity of confusing "value" with "preference". We rate poems based on what we prefer which is a complete and utter subjective evaluation. I rate poems differently based on what I subjectively evaluate as enjoyable to read. And for me, and consequently my subjectivity, it is not based upon correct grammAr or spelling. A good thing too, because if it were, I would be a walking hypocrit. But since I live my life with as much objectivity as I can, which is but a drop in the ocean, I have come to understand and appreciate one's subjective form of communication. Let me state this next sentence with emphatic and complete truth: Not everyone writes to communicate with you. Nor do they write with my communication skills in mind. Having said that, the only goal of any creator, which is what all artists truly are, is the creation of their voice.

To be clear: the reason we "rate" poems is to convey to the reader whether we "like" them or not. Each and every evaluation on this site is an opinion; consequently, it is up to the individual rater's subjective evaluation. Let's say, for example, you should rate a poem a 10, while I rate it a 6. Who's right? Who's wrong? In your comments, you have stated said poem is the absolute "best" poem you have read. While I have torn it apart and found it to be next to meanlingless. Who's comments should be taken into account for the poet to "improve" their work? Clearly mine should right? But if so, and the poem is altered to a more suitable rhyme and rhythm (thanks for the correct spelling...somehow I knew you would include that ) for me, but loses its appeal to you....then what's the point?

To make blanket statements regarding the subjective appeal of a poem as an objective judgement of value is bordering arrogance. There are an abundance of poems on this site I really love to read. There are some I don't care for, but to judge a poem as "unworthy" or "beneath" me based on someone's ability to communicate the way I, or you, prefer things to be communicated is to rip all validation away from the individual. In other words you are saying, "It should be done my way because I know what is good".

In terms of competition, I am possibly the most competative person you can find. I love winning, almost as much as I hate losing. But this isn't sports. There isn't an objective scoreboard to look at and see a clear winner. The winner's here are winners because they have written a poem that many people subjectively "prefer". Which is an accomplishent to be esteemed because to write a poem with such a broad appeal to be liked across subjectivities is a demanding task. It is not a triumph of value over our peers. The nature of value does not allow it.

And that little statement regarding whether or not someone care's about their poetry...I'm not even going to go there. Everyone care's about their poetry.

But, nonetheless, I have truly enjoyed this discussion and look forward to your reply. Let's keep this going a bit longer. I'm having fun .

***Disclaimer - This was not proofread prior to its posting.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

To FoF...

You are not being at all pretentious. The problem would seem to be people whom want you to comment but get pissed of if you point out misspellings! One issue I have is when another poet reads my work and corrects either literary structure or punctuation. On top of that, their own work is RIDDLED with HORRIBLE grammar. I fully invite cunstructive criticism, but make sure you know what you are talking about, if you are unsure...ask a question.

Poetry is a free style of writing; there are no rules and no true grammatic structure. However, spelling is important so that your work does not seem to be the work of idiots.

one more thing...I recieved a reply to a correction I made to another poet, ironically enough after I corrected her she said: "Sometimes you are supposed to capitalize after a comma..." AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
NO YOU DONT!!! the only rule about capitals after a comma is: DON'T DO IT!!!

this is the response I feel after said poet tried to peer edit my work, not understanding what I was doing, and even made horrendous grammatical errors in the comment...

sorry to ramble, but i HATE people who are lofty on there position when they should be looking for there words on the ground...

to close, thank you, FoF, for your persistant endevours to improve not just the quality, but the ability of your fellow poets!

Carpe Nocturn,

dano

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

I have finally posted a poem on here. I wrote it last night after spending time with someone I really care about but hadn't seen in awhile. The punctuation probably isn't correct, and the capitalization is completely off. I posted it the same way I wrote it on the paper, which is good enough for me. I didn't join this site to remind people why they hated their grammar school English teachers. We are all here for our love of words, and the feelings they can bring you or make you remember. The idea of rating someones' work seems foreign to me, but to comment on their work is completely natural. I look forward to hearing what people think about my poetry but as far as giving me a 0-10 rating on it, fire away, I won't lose any sleep if I get 0's across the board.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

Dano.....I would NOT get pissed off if someone pointed out a spelling error. I would say thank you for taking the time to point that out to me. Then I might fix it or I might not. But it would really please me to know that someone who does not know me read my poem and thought enough of it to want to see it in it's best form. Just an fyi....ok? I don't judge anyone for their oppinions so please don't blanket judge me.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

jaded...

I would NEVER blanket judge anyone! I am very happy to hear your response, and I think that most poets would appreciate good editorial feedback like that...I was actually refering to one person who decided they were an editor, and clearly were not...everyone starts on the same level with me and get a tremendous amount of respect for just posting, only after someone comments over their level of ability do I become complacent to their position...i will check your stuff out too! (and not for grammar!)

thanks for the comment!

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

First things first -
I am not an English teacher. I read, a lot. I write, a lot. I listen to others read, a lot.
I edit professionally, when I have time. I am sought out to judge writing competitions. I do not profess to know everything there is to know about writing. I work desperately hard at trying to make my living as a writer.

I have never suggested to anyone that they alter their voice to suit me. And as I have stated in previous posts, no one's life experiences are more or less than anyone else's. My statement about - caring about their work - is not reflective upon their feelings. If we did not care so deeply about what we write, we would not write. And I certainly do not expect my work to appeal to everyone.

To you - dangedmanjr & JaddenBlade & JadedJezzabel & quite a few others - I have read your work, but before leaving comments, I like to digest and reread three, maybe four times before I put key to screen. Some comments I have listed an NR (No Rating) because the errors were so distracting. Again, our words are like roadmaps that take us on the writer's journey. If the reader gets lost or distracted, whose fault is that?

Poems have definitive structures and rhyme schemes. Free verse is just what it says.
ccslim has posted examples of rhyming prose and there are those who write "stream of consciousness" - a paragraph of philosophical thought. All are forms of poetry. All are important to the author. And judgement of any creative writing is always subjective.

But there are many to whom writing is a craft, a skill to be honed. Language, when used effectively, can incite emotions to fever pitch or soothe and console to depths of peace. And to accomplish this, spelling, grammAr, etc...play their part. You write as an educated man who, you've admitted yourself, is a bit lazy to turn to a dictionary when in doubt. It all comes down to what you want to do with your writing.

"Look deep into my eyes to see the (hearthfire)-(heartfire) glow and know (you're)-(your) home."
These words just now popped into my head - the line has more than one meaning. A single letter or correct punctuation can make a difference.

As a "poet" on this site, we would all agree that all poems are equal in their heartfelt emotions. I will tell you now, as passionately as we all feel about writing - the publishing world is cold and heartless. If one is intent on getting published - all the excuses/reasons in the world will not get you past an editor that runs into a careless writing style. And if you do not care about the publishing aspect, fine. But there is not one published poet who would come down on the side of not bothering to improve writing skills. The more tools you have at your disposal, the better architect you are.

dangedmanjr - You are right - the only thing capitalized after a comma would be a proper noun. Capitalization is not necessary for lines of poems that continue the thought of the preceeding line(s).

Rose are red, violets are blue -
JaddenBlade, the ball back to you.

Re: Pardon me for being pretentious

My comment about English teachers was not directed to any specific person. Helping someone who wants their poetry to be completely refined is a good thing for that writer. I have had a few things published in the past, so I understand the value of having all aspects of my writing being cohesive. I just meant for me it is much more meaningful for someone to let me know how what I write relates to their life experiences than to tell me that I put a period or hyphen in the wrong place. That is where my evaluation of what someone writes will be focused, but I'm not offended if someone critiques my grammar or punctuation. However, as for what I post on here it is purely for the joy that I may be able to bring to others. I like the idea of having a forum for writers to share their work with people who would otherwise never get a chance to get a glimpse into that persons' life.

Last edited by p0ps 04-14-2009 at 08:00:39 PM